From Anxiety to Empowerment: A Deep Dive into Postpartum & Perinatal OCD

In this compelling episode of the Heal Your Roots Podcast, we warmly welcome back Dr. Katie Manganello as we delve into the intricate experiences of postpartum and perinatal OCD. With a compassionate approach, this discussion unfolds the layers of what it means to battle OCD while stepping into the world of motherhood. Dr. Katie provides expert insights, coupled with practical advice, aiming to enlighten, support, and empower those on this challenging journey. This episode is not only a source of invaluable information but also a testament to the strength and resilience inherent in parenthood. Whether you're directly impacted by these issues or stand in support of those who are, this episode is an essential listen for understanding the complexities of maternal mental health.

Transcript

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 0:01

Welcome back to Heal Your Roots Podcast. For today's episode we have Dr. Katie Mangan ello. Joining us again, and some exciting news is that Dr. Katie will be a reoccurring guest co host with Heal Your Roots Podcast.

Dr. Katie Manganello: 0:14

So there's postpartum OCD and there's perinatal OCD. So OCD that occurs immediately after the child is born is called the postpartum, sad. And then OCD that occurs during pregnancy is called perinatal, OCD. There's

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 0:30

a lot of uncertainty. I think there's a lot of uncertainty. And it's hard to know, which is the right thing to do. And all the time there is no right thing like I know we talked about in a different episode, like there is no right thing. There's just the best thing under the circumstances for you, Katie, I'm so excited to have you back on and have you on for future episodes.

Dr. Katie Manganello: 0:53

I am so excited. I'm really looking forward to it as well, I think we'll have a lot of good topics to cover.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 1:00

So today's episode is going to be a little bit different from our usual structure. Usually, when we have a therapist or mental health practitioner on we kind of interview them, get to know them, their background and everything. But today, since we are the CO hosts to kind of set the field, it'll just be us kind of having a conversation and we're really gonna dive into postpartum OCD anxiety, and what it's like to be a new mom as an entrepreneur. So Katie will actually be interviewing me the interviewer has turned into the interviewee. So this is going to be a little bit different for us. So I'm really excited to be asked some questions and share some of my experiences with you, Katie and the rest of the listeners.

Dr. Katie Manganello: 1:43

Yes, me too. I cannot wait. As somebody who is not a mother, or really, you know, not yet in life. I'm really excited to pick your brain a little bit about how it's going for you, especially as a new mom, so I can't wait to get into it. But yes, if we would like to start out talking about some OCD and the postpartum and Perinatal realm, I'd be happy to talk about that.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 2:08

Absolutely. Yeah. So Katie, I know in the other episodes, so you've been on to other episodes so far with us. And every time I asked you to share what is OCD for the listeners, so if they haven't listened before, if you can kind of share what that is, and then in particular, postpartum OCD as well. Yet,

Dr. Katie Manganello: 2:28

yes, so briefly, just typical OCD. It's, it's, it's a disorder that is a doubting disorder. And it is comprised of two parts, which is the obsessions and the compulsions. Obsessions are the core fears or the intrusive thoughts, images, of whatever it is, it's feeling very distressing. Common themes would be contamination, harm OCD. I think the contamination is like one of the most popular but there's also religious OCD are scrupulosity. So there's lots of different types, which I've kind of touched on in previous episodes. So so that's kind of the theme with the obsessions. So obsessions fears, that compulsions are things that people are doing to try to alleviate that distress that comes along with the intrusions but the more people engage in compulsions, the more distressing the disorder becomes. The compulsions provide a short term relief, but long term distress. So common compulsions would be maybe flipping light switches, or washing hands, those types of things that people more commonly heard about. So anybody wants to learn more about that, or other subtypes, they can listen to some of the other episodes, but as it relates to this topic, so there's postpartum OCD, and there's pairing natal CD. So OCD that occurs immediately after the child is born is called the postpartum OCD. And then OCD that occurs during pregnancy is called perinatal, OCD. They're pretty similar there, because they're all surrounding the baby. So another big thing to know about OCD is it's always targeting your values, and going towards the things that you really care about. So it makes sense that new parents can experience these things because, you know, they're they're so excited and happy to have a baby, right? And so, there's a lot of there's also a lot of pressure to be like, I gotta keep this little baby alive, right? There's a lot of fears, I think that come up and it's normal to an extent for people to experience some of those fears or stressors that come with just having a baby. But the, you know, postpartum or perinatal, OCD is what kind of takes it to that next level. A lot of the obsessions would be about the baby getting hurt, or contaminated or loss. Also unwanted sexual obsessions at times a lot of the compulsions related to this might involve checking the baby checking baby monitors excessively, mental rituals seeking reassurance about being a good parent. Other things too, could be avoiding of the baby, if they're afraid of harming the baby, one thing that they might do could be avoidance, which can be really problematic, right? Because that can turn into neglect if there's not other people there to you know, caretaking and help out, and that the goal for the new parent is to never actually neglect their baby, right? Like, I want to make that clear that it's more so that they are afraid that they would potentially harm the baby. So, you know, these things can show up in different ways. But more importantly, the people who are experiencing these fears, the fears almost never, you know, come true in the turn in terms of feeling that they are actually going to harm their baby, and then them actually intentionally harming the baby. Obviously, accidental harm happens at any rate with being a parent, right, to some extent, but in terms of fearing that they're going to intentionally harm their baby, it's, you know, highly unlikely that that's actually going to happen, the more you engage in the treatment for it. Does that accurately would you say that makes sense as a summary of what that might look like?

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 6:26

Yeah, so I wanted to ask, actually, because a lot of the things you mentioned, I think, are very common that just come up as having a new child, like being a new parent having a completely new responsibility in life, of making sure that this other human being that's basically helpless, relies on you to stay alive. So there's so much responsibility and pressure, that what is kind of the differentiator between like, what is kind of normal stress and anxiety and concern versus crossing that threshold of like, okay, this is becoming obsessive, or this is a compulsion, and this is not healthy. And I need to seek help for this.

Dr. Katie Manganello: 7:06

Right? Yes, you're right. And this is where it can be a little bit difficult, because these are normal reactions in a lot of ways. But there is kind of that fine line where it's no longer normal, like, if you are consistently distress. So I mean, somebody is probably checking the baby monitor. Not at all now some times before they fall asleep. Yeah, right. Or if there are concerns of, you know, the baby seemed more, they caught a cold, so I'm going to be checking it a little more frequently than I typically would. Or they've been having trouble sleeping. And so we were keeping an extra eye on them, right. But it's another thing if things seem to be going well with the baby, we put the baby down, and we are constantly checking their breathing and analyzing, seeing their chest going up and down, up and down. For hours, right are for a very extended period of time. i When I'm usually explaining OCD, I usually would explain it as it's interfering with your functioning. But there is a level of being a new parent that whether it's OCD or not it it's not quite interesting. You're going to have your functioning interfered with regardless as a new parent, right. Yeah. So I think a lot of it is also how distressing it is for somebody. Like I remember the first person that I heard assess, that had met for OCD with their baby was they were, it wouldn't be on just like a lack of sleep, because you have to get up to feed the baby. It was that like, Okay, now that the baby's asleep, I don't get to go to sleep now. Because now I need to watch the baby and make sure that nothing happens to them while they're sleeping. And like watching them in their crib. And again, like checking to see that they're breathing or this one person I know, I recall, they were doing like, excessive, like prayers around the baby. Like they'd have to pray so many times that certain prayer in order for the baby to stay safe. Things like that. They can also seem like maybe less. Those are more common types of things that people would be doing with a new baby, right, like checking the monitor. Other things that maybe wouldn't be as common that people with OCD, postpartum OCD might be struggling with is around that harm of the baby. So maybe excessively washing hands before picking the baby up so that the baby doesn't get sick. Or that going back to that avoidance piece. Maybe they're avoiding changing diapers because they're having intrusive, unwanted intrusive thoughts of what if I molest the baby while I'm changing their diaper? Or purposely saying oh, I'm gonna let my partner carry the baby down the steps because I don't want to get on the freight I'll drop the baby or maybe I'll lose control and throw the baby down the steps right like so. Have you are purposely avoiding those things now can be normal for a thought like that they're popping your head, right? Maybe Maybe I'll trip and fall and drop my baby, which sounds very scary. But you then kind of take a second back and you're like, alright, strange thought we carry the baby down the steps, versus It's a rule in the house that I'm not going to carry the baby down the steps, my partner does that. That's their responsibility. So those are some of some examples where things might look a little bit different, versus with being OC versus other parenting challenges that happen with any new parent.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 10:36

Yeah, I'm glad you were able to explain that. Because as you said, each one for a lot of them was like, Oh, I wish I knew that breathing nonstop. Oh, I have these intrusive visuals of like, oh my god, what if I drop her if when I trip, I'm super clumsy, right? So I'm like, Oh, my God, I'm scared that I'm going to drop her. So I'm, like, constantly watching where my feet are going to make sure. Right? Like, I don't want her to get sick. But it's, it sounds like it's the excessive piece, right? Like, we all have a little bit of that. And then we're able to transition out or do something different. Versus it sounds like the person gets stuck in this and it lasts for hours and days and however

Dr. Katie Manganello: 11:11

long. Right? Right. And exactly, and depending on how far they get stuck. Like it can show up in different ways too. Because I mean, again, it's kind of like showing up on a spectrum, right. Like, on a typical, you know, in a typical couple, maybe he just has a baby, like I'm sure that there is like a level of, you know, you you make bicker more than typical, or there's like, you know, general parenting struggle with your partner and how that interferes in your relationship. Right. But it could go to a whole nother level of the OCD taking over where they're like, I have to deal with the baby 24/7 year I cannot, you know, give my partner any attention. Because I'm so focused on the baby kind of thing, right? There's obviously going to be a bit of that happening along that that spectrum, right. But it's when it becomes more extreme and interfering with the relationship or in your life and other ways. opposed to this is a typical New parenting type of situation. That's tough. I think that. So, Karen, I have another episode coming up here, in, I guess it would be the week after this. I'll let them edit whenever that's going to come out. But we have an upcoming episode with a few of my colleagues, Dr. Brown and Dr. Bliss, they specialize in women's health. And so they will be able to come on and talk more in depth about women's health. How you know, postpartum anxiety and depression can show up differently than the typical kind of adjustment period. And all those types of things. They also know a lot about infertility and things of that nature and adjusting to challenges as it relates to those issues. So we will be able to have a much more in depth conversation with them about some of this stuff.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 13:08

Yeah, so stay tuned for that. I think that I mean, this is great to differentiate, because I feel like a lot of the information, like while I was pregnant afterwards, was not common knowledge, and not very clear. And things that are normalized, or it's a stigma or you think I should be doing this, I should be feeling this way. And it's very confusing and conflicting information online. Because you know, doctors don't always share a lot of this information or, you know, if you don't take like a baby class alone or with your partner, you may not know. So I think this is going to be really beneficial for people ages to kind of normalize this experience, but to be able to tell the difference between what is a common or normal I hate using the word normal, but like generally right expected, versus an unhealthy amount that is, you know, getting into a different territory that this could be obsessive compulsive disorder.

Dr. Katie Manganello: 13:59

Yes. For sure. As you were saying that I was thinking to another pretty big marker of differentiating is the level of guilt and shame that is experienced, you know, we always hear of like, mom guilt, right? Like, there's some of that that's going to show up again, generally, but like, it can become much more intense that that really intense feeling of shame and guilt that comes along with it being OCD.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 14:25

Yeah. And I think it's tough to know, because, you know, a lot of people are not in the field, right? They're not mental health professionals or medical professionals. So they may not know what that threshold is. And it could be a very subjective experience of Well, yeah, everyone has mom guilt, or everyone experiences these things. So this is probably normal or I shouldn't be anxious. I should be worried. Isn't that a sign of me caring and it being like a healthy amount of worry, right? Like growing up my mom would say you know, someone loves you about how much they worry about you. Not healthy but you know like men messages that we receive? It's you don't really know what that threshold is. I'm curious to know also, is this something that shows up if someone never had OCD or wasn't diagnosed with it before that it can kind of start new as an onset after becoming a new parent? Or is this more common if someone has already had OCD? And now this the topic or the focus has shifted? Yeah,

Dr. Katie Manganello: 15:23

that's actually a really good question. So with the perinatal, or the postpartum OCD, it seemed, from what researches it seems to affect about one to 2%, of pregnant or postpartum women. But it also shows up obviously, for people who, who have already had OCD, and then symptoms can worsen. Also OCD likes, like kind of like hot themes. So if somebody was maybe experiencing contamination, OCD in the past, and they've gone through treatment, they're better but now they have a baby. Now, it might be like, harm or contamination towards the baby type of thing. So yes, it the answer is both, it can bring a flare up or a new episode or exacerbate things with somebody who has already had it. And it can also tend to just, you know, be increased for pregnant or postpartum women. Also, another thing that people don't talk about at all I feel like, not much is how this can happen for fathers too. I know some fathers who experience anxiety around not anxiety, not just anxiety, like OCD around, you know, just that increased responsibility of their child and wanting to keep them safe and same types of behaviors showing up really?

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 16:38

Yeah, yeah, actually, when I was taking that, like a baby class, which I highly recommend for anyone who is pregnant or planning to be pregnant, take a baby class before you have the baby. Very valuable. But I learned in there, you know, postpartum for the partner who may or may not be the father or another, you know, depending on the relationship structure is that the partner can also have postpartum depression, anxiety, OCD, who's not the birthing parent, and how it's really important to also be aware and look out for cues for that as well. So I think we don't necessarily it's not maybe it's common to think about the partner, because the birthing parent is going through all of these changes at once, that we forget that the supporting partner also needs support, and is also having a huge life transition for them to that

Dr. Katie Manganello: 17:27

it really is something that has is not something that is talked too much about unless you like you said, you go to a specific DB class or, you know, I mean, that's not even anything that was really showing up in my training until I was seeing people and it was showing up and I was, you know, yeah, of course, we would treat it the same way. But yeah, it is a nuance, and I think it's sad for those other partners, because it might feel less valid for them to experience those things. But it's really not any less valid. It's, it's still a huge transition and a big shift in responsibilities. So absolutely.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 18:08

I think I should also want to make a note that this also goes for adoptive parents to have a baby, right? Like it's not yes, there's all these changes for the mother after the hormonal imbalance, and all of these things, and the partner but also if you're adopting a child, like being a new parent is hard period. Regardless of what part of that process you are, we're a part of.

Dr. Katie Manganello: 18:31

Yeah, definitely. Which this seems like a good time for us to segue into some of our questions for you. What do you think?

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 18:40

Sure. Yeah, you know, I noticed myself being like, like, keep asking questions. I keep trying to be the interviewer. But yeah, go for

Dr. Katie Manganello: 18:48

it. Yeah, let's talk, let's, you know, switch the roles a little bit. So I'm so excited to hear about what it's like having a new baby, I'm kind of at the age or the realm in my life, where my friends are just starting to have babies or get pregnant. So I actually don't have really many people in my life that I'm really close to that do have babies yet. So, but some are coming up. So I am like, ready to get all the details. And I don't know what this like this is like because everybody says how hard it is and how you don't sleep, and how there's a lot of body changes. But I feel like there's so much more to it that people just don't talk about. So I can't wait to dig in. I think one of the first things I want to ask you about is just in the realms of in the realm of being a professional. So on one aspect, you're a business owner, right? And then on the other you are a therapist, so I'm really curious for you what some of the challenges have been. Let's start out with maybe like the Business Route, you know, because there's a lot of places if you work at a hospital for example, if you work In a hospital, you already have, you know, benefits through your job and how you have an allotted postpartum time that you can take off. Right? So without having a job where it's like that, where you kind of make the rules, right? How did you work through the whole maternity leave? And in managing the business?

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 20:26

Yeah. So part of this was actually a lot of planning before I even got pregnant or was thinking about starting to try to get pregnant. Being in private practice, especially being a private practice owner, I think, has a lot of benefits and privileges, and that I can create my schedule, I can, you know, I'm in control of my job, who I see when I see them, you know, the structure who I work with everything like that. So I already had in my mind that, okay, I'm in private practice, I don't have a built in maternity leave, right? Like, if, if I don't see clients, I don't get paid, right. Like, that's kind of how it goes for a lot of therapists who might be in private practice, right? There's pros and cons to this a lot of freedom, less burnout, but then also not as much of the financial stability sometimes depending on your caseload, right. And if you're not seeing clients, you're not getting paid, like I said, so I really had this in mind to plan for, okay, I want to own a private practice a group practice, because if I'm not going to be working, there has to be some other kind of income coming in. So having other therapists in place. And really, I mean, this was built out very long, prior to this, right, is thinking about having other income. So having other therapists work under me having other whether it's a course that we're working on right now, publishing a book, having other streams of income and thinking about that ahead of time. And creating that really made a huge difference. Just knowing that I always knew I wanted to be a mother, and I'm in private practice, I'm a therapist, so and I don't want to work in an agency. So how am I going to align all of these things, so a lot of planning took place. Also, then being in the practice, having the group practice already, and being someone who did a lot of the administrative work and wears a million hats in the business. I knew that Okay, once I have my baby, I'm not going to be able to answer your phone calls for consultations. I'm not gonna be able to do all of these things. Like I don't know what my schedule, I know that I'm not going to have a predictable schedule. And you can't run a business like that. Right, right. So we made sure that we brought in employees that would take those roles. And that happened way in advance. And that was really hard to release that control of being like, this is my baby, like, I've been running this, like, I know how everything is supposed to supposed to go how I want it to go, right. And being able to hand that off to somebody was really tough. But we found such an incredible person, Serena, who's our intake coordinator, that it has made the transition so much smoother and easier and like a huge relief and weight off my shoulders. That I thought like, why didn't I do that sooner? Like what was i Holding on to, but that has been huge. And instrumental is like creating a team. Right? Like they say like, it takes a village. It. It's not like it's a cliche, but it's really true. It takes a village to run a practice takes a village to raise a child to do anything really big. You need a team of people that you can trust in place that do good work. So that was part of the that process. And that was a long winded answer. No,

Dr. Katie Manganello: 23:36

that was a great answer. And those are all things that I have not or wouldn't necessarily just think of off the top of my head, like you talking about that whole aspect of having to really drop some control and like, hand over responsibilities of your baby, right? And I'm sure you're gonna have to do that with your, your actual baby. Right. You know what, that's something I think a lot of people struggle with is actually, so there is a little plug for Bravo. I don't know if any of our listeners also watch Bravo. But there's the show Vanderpump Rules. Were one of the people on there. Her name Sheena, she actually has OCD, and was the end. She just had a baby a couple years ago. And one of her things that shows up is that she really struggles with allowing other people to watch her baby. And so it was really interfering with her relationship and with her ability to work and go do things without letting the BBB with either her mom or her sister or somebody who is a close family member. And that was a huge strain. So if anybody watches that that is something where it's a really good example of what this can look like, right? So I'm sure that that's going to be a challenge not just with work but also No, little baby. Yeah,

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 25:03

I mean, I'm fortunate enough to have my mom who lives close by to watch her pretty regularly for, you know, my mother in law to watch her. It was like friends in town and things like that I have a lot of people in my life that I trust, I don't typically have people in my life that I don't trust. So I think that kind of eliminates some of that, knowing that these are all people that I can rely on that I trust that we'll be able to take care of her that would never do anything intentionally to harm her. Right? So that takes a lot of stress off of me and pressure. And having that peace of mind. I'm like, take her. Like, if you want to hang out with her hang out with her, I'm gonna go take a nap or I'm gonna go do something else. Because I that's that peace of mind. I don't know what it's going to be like, if when we're going to need to have someone who is not an immediate family member or a close friend. Right? That's gonna be tough, because I don't know you. And I don't know what your intentions are. And you know, there's a whole slew of things. It's going to take a lot of time to trust somebody to watch this little human. That's yours. So yeah, I mean, I can't I don't have OCD. But I can imagine that being exacerbated, because that is really scary to think about

Dr. Katie Manganello: 26:15

it is. Yeah, definitely. So you explained a lot of how you had to do so much planning for a very long time to make these changes within the business within your practice. Right. But how do you feel like it's impacted you specifically around being a therapist? So like your, your main role, right?

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 26:42

Yeah, so that was interesting. Because we are fully telehealth, a lot of my clients didn't know until I told them until I chose to tell them, right, because if we're in person, it's going to be hard. It's a high that right. So I had a little bit more control in when and how I was going to tell my clients, I waited until I think it was like maybe four months before I was due. And I think that was a good time, because it was allowing them to know, okay, like in four months, which is a solid amount of time to I think mentally prepare that, you know, my therapist is gonna go on leave. If I need to make any adjustments, like the things that we're working on, we can kind of adjust or continue. Like that was a good amount of time to kind of therapeutically work through that with the client, and give them space to process if they needed to. Luckily, all my clients were like, so happy for me and excited. And just, you know, wishing me all these wonderful things, and then went right back into what was going on with them. So it wasn't a huge disruption. I also didn't have a huge caseload at that point, because I have the group practice. So a lot of the other therapists have a bigger caseload than me, I was really just seeing clients that I've seen for a really long time just maintaining, I wasn't taking any new clients on after a certain point, because I wanted to be mindful and respectful that, you know, if you're going to be opening up to me, and we're going to be doing deep work, and I'm going to leave in a couple of months. That's not really fair. Right? So I made sure to anyone who was reaching out to let them know, you know, I'm not accepting new clients. And if they push, like, listen, like, I'm going to be on maternity leave soon. So I really like it's going to be a disservice to you. So I'm not going to be able to see you. So that part wasn't too bad. I think a really hard part of the process of being pregnant and a therapist is the first few months of just being so nauseous, like that was rough, because they call it morning sickness. But it is not morning sickness, it is all day sickness. Like I don't know why they came up with in the morning, because it's not, it's not just in the morning, I don't know about other people's experiences, mine was up to no matter what time of the day it was, it could happen at any point. And working in private practice was huge. Because I thought to myself, like I really don't know how I would have been able to handle this if I worked in an agency or a hospital or a setting where I can't a work from home and be just call out. Like he was. I'm very grateful and fortunate that I was able to work from home and set my life up in that way. Because man that was really tough. So like i My heart goes out to a lot of women who don't have that, and either had to push through or call out or maybe lose their jobs or just, you know, figure out a way to move through that because it is debilitating, to just be nauseous all day long or throwing up or being in bed like your mind is elsewhere. And as therapists you know, like we need to be present we need to be emotionally and mentally present for our clients and because I was able to like shift my schedule around. I was able to kind of mitigate some of that and let my clients know like hey, like I'm not feeling too well like you know, touching base with them to keep them in formed what was going on?

Dr. Katie Manganello: 30:03

Well, I definitely would not think about that aspect of being nauseous. And like working with that. Yeah. Because I've definitely heard of people saying that, Yes, you. It's not just in the morning, right. But the ability to actually have to be sick if you are sick, right? Can't just be I mean, you could I mean, things can happen, but it's tough if you're mid session talking to somebody and you're like, you're right. Yeah, I mean, they're gonna have that's, I guess, but yeah, I mean, if you can plan for that, and you have the ability to kind of move things around. And sure, that makes that a lot more manageable. Yeah.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 30:41

I mean, imagine being hungover. Right, like, think about the worst hangover hangover you've ever had for like, a month. And now you have to do therapy? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like that. And then just eating like sleeves of crackers, just saltines? Because you know, so we won't go into the details. TMI, but, yeah, the beginning stage is really tough. Especially being a therapist, because you need, you know, this emotional capacity that gets really dwindled away, because you just don't feel well, for a really prolonged period of time.

Dr. Katie Manganello: 31:17

Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought that up. Because one of my other questions I was thinking a lot about is how your body changes just throughout the whole process. So you just already started by saying a little bit about what was challenging earlier on in the pregnancy. But can you say anything else about just how your body changed? And if there were any positive aspects or, you know, negative aspects, or just kind of neutral things that just changed that maybe you weren't expecting?

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 31:48

Yeah, I mean, so many things. with body image, it's really crazy. I'm really, really trying to be mindful and intentional, of how I speak about myself physically, and how I feel about myself, because I have a daughter, and I really don't want to pass down. Like negative body image issues and beliefs and narratives. It's really hard, right? Like, you know, I've done a lot of work myself, but still, like, it's so ingrained the way that we look and how that kind of ties to our work, and how we feel about ourselves and how we feel like others perceive us. And there was a point, like, in the beginning of the pregnancy, where I didn't look pregnant just yet, but I definitely gained weight. And, you know, it could have been like, Oh, she just had like, a lot of burritos these past few weeks, like what's going on? You know, like, no one is going to ask you if you're pregnant, but I felt like people knew I was gaining weight. And like, there was this really weird, you know, like, internally like feeling self conscious and wanting to be like, I'm pregnant. Like, that's why I look this way. But like not doing that, because that's strange and weird. And you know, and then once I finally had like, my belly pop, I kind of felt relieved. And I was like, embracing it. I'm like, Oh, everybody knows now. Like, it's okay. You can talk to me about it. Like, yeah, of course, I'm gonna look big. I have a baby growing inside of me. Like, it's fine. Like, a lot of some of those insecurities kind of went away because I had this reason or like,

Dr. Katie Manganello: 33:15

I'm not allowed to be bigger now, because I have a reason I have a baby. Not just because my weight is fluctuating kind

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 33:22

of Yes. Yeah, that was really big. And then just finding things that fit like, there are not a lot of stores or places that sell flattering or cute maternity clothes. I mean, yes, if you want to just throw a bag on you, and call it a day you can. But you know, you still want to look cute. So they had a really hard time finding things that would like fit me and make me feel good and make me feel so attractive. Right? So even just going through a process of like shopping, and then trying on clothes, which is like physically exhausting. I was I don't even feel like taking my pants on and off. Yeah, I bet is tiring. But yeah, like so many things changed. My feet were inflamed. My hands were swollen. It's it really is like this roller coaster where like the beginning with like, my experience person. Everyone is different. Right? Some people love pregnancy. And they enjoy it. And there's not any of these hiccups or they don't like experience negative aspects of it and like, kudos to them. Like that's phenomenal. Like one of the lucky ones. Right? Like, love that for you was not my experience. Yeah, it's like the beginning as you're nauseous you feel horrible. second trimester is pretty good. You're getting your energy back, your belly showing. So it's exciting, right? Like you're able to like eat again and do all of these things. And then third trimester creeps around and it's like okay, like now I'm getting heavy. Now my back hurts. Now I have restless leg syndrome that I never had or knew what the hell that was and very unsettling experience. It's hard to sleep. You have to like roll from one side to the other to get up every single time, like I really took advantage of the fact of just being able to like move in a very natural way. Because every, every movement, it's very intentional, like how you're getting up and where you're moving. And is it worth it to go over there? For all the effort that I have to put into doing this?

Dr. Katie Manganello: 35:22

Yeah, little things you would not even think about at all.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 35:27

Yeah. And I think a big piece of the physical part is needing so much help. I needed so much help physically to get things right or couldn't bend over a certain point, you really have to rely on a lot of people around you. Which, you know, depends on your personality can be either, you know, some people welcome that other people, you know, it's really hard. If you have a hard time asking for help or receiving help. It's going to be tough, like I you know, there was, especially after the pregnancy, like, I needed a lot of help physically, and like, that really weighed on me emotionally. And just like how I can't do a lot of these simple tasks. I felt like a burden. I felt, you know, useless, right? Like, I really did, like, I can't do anything, I have to take care of a baby. I'm healing but someone else has to take care of me, like, Oh, my God, like, this is a horrible, it felt like a horrible experience. Like I need someone constantly to help me. And it felt very, I felt very helpless and hopeless. And for a little bit in the beginning, I think like, as I spoke to a lot of new moms like oh, yeah, like, there was a lot of crying in the shower in the first two months. I'm like, Wow, I did too. Like nobody talks about that prior. It's, you know, there's a lot of sadness that kind of comes through like this grieving and transition. It's, it's a lot to carry in the beginning.

Dr. Katie Manganello: 36:44

Right. And I think another big part of the beginning that I foresee being incredibly difficult for me as a person, is the keeping it a secret, like you can't really, you're not supposed to like, or it's not, I don't know, like you just everybody says what you don't tell people for what the first how please be okay. So that's a long time to keep a really, really, really big life change happening. And that also, I can understand, I guess, the rationale for why that is the way it is. But also, it's like, it has to feel isolating to an extent.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 37:25

Yeah, and you know, a lot of the time people say that is because the likelihood of miscarriage is so high in the beginning. Which, you know, it's kind of sometimes it feels counterintuitive, right? Like, if I have this big thing going on with my body. And now like, if I plan this, and I'm excited about this pregnancy, right, and I want to share this with everybody. And then, you know, I haven't if this person has a miscarriage, and nobody knows you're pregnant to begin with, and now you're grieving. It's a you have to tell people, so they're like, Oh, my God, and now you have to tell them the next thing that happened. So it's like this emotional roller coaster where I feel like actually might be more helpful if the closest people to you knew. So that right? God forbid, if that happens to you, which is very common, that you have that support that you need. Right. It's it's almost like a superstitious thing that we've kind of accepted as the norm is that, you know, don't share this because if it doesn't work out, not everybody knows about it. Like that's kind of weird, right?

Dr. Katie Manganello: 38:27

Exactly. It's very much that whole thing in society of don't share your discomfort or don't share that you're right. Don't make other people uncomfortable with your discomfort. Meanwhile, this is a huge, huge, I mean, having a miscarriage I cannot even imagine like I and it's common to right. So it does feel like there should be more support around that.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 38:51

Yeah, I mean, they say within the first as the first 12 months or 12 weeks, right is when it's the most likely I think it's like 25% chance for any pregnancy. I don't know if that's exactly, but it's pretty high up there. Like it's, I mean, almost every person in my life who has been pregnant or you know, something along the lines, like there's a lot of women in my life that I know, that have had experienced a miscarriage. Yeah, and yeah, it's not. It's not that, like it's not talked about it says common, right. And I think that if people recognize like, it doesn't mean there's something wrong with you or that you did something to cause this. Like, it's just like, biologically like, this is what happens like these are the statistics of what can happen. Like we're literally growing a human inside of us. It's not always going to work out unfortunately. So like having that support ahead of time, I think is actually really important. Like we told, we told a couple people like the day we got the pregnancy test that it said pregnant like I can't keep that secret. I feel like that's how I can keep other people's secrets but my own secrets. I'm like, I want to tell everybody

Dr. Katie Manganello: 39:58

say that But yeah, yeah, I totally hear you on that. Well, so those were a lot of the changes that were kind of happening for you while you were pregnant. But what's it been like? Since you've had your baby? Do you want to talk a little louder? Sure.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 40:18

So do you mean in terms of like, physically or just like all of it?

Dr. Katie Manganello: 40:22

So I am curious physically, for sure. But I, I do also want you to be able to just kind of talk about the fun stuff with her and like being able to see her and like, learn about her personality as she's growing and all of that.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 40:37

Yeah. So it's, you know, it's, it's a real roller coaster. Like when people say, Oh, it's really hard. You know, I feel like people who are not parents, and we did this to you like this hubris, like, Oh, it can't be that hard, or like everybody's doing it. Like we all know, we'll be able to figure it out better. You get humbled real quick. It is as hard as people say, and even harder. And it's not like, the hard thing is that you are so sleep deprived. And you're so sleep deprived, like you can't function, right, like you don't have time or energy to do anything. Besides make sure that this baby is alive, fed changed and safe, right? Like you don't really have you don't hear about sleeping much you don't have time to eat, you don't have time to clean the house like or clean yourself. Like, there's all these things that kind of go out the window, especially in the very beginning. So everything is focused on this baby. And all of these new responsibilities that don't go away, are there. So if you're someone who is already anxious, this is going to take it up a notch. Like I'm normally in a kind of an anxious person. I've worked on it a lot throughout my life at coping mechanisms. But guess what all those coping mechanisms go out the window, because I don't have time to do them. So it was really tough. In the beginning, I'd say the first first two months, but mostly like the first couple of weeks were brutal, it was really just trying to survive. And I have to say that, like I'm very, very fortunate and blessed to have a partner who is in it with me 24/7 throughout all of it, and he works from home with me, right? Like, that's because we intentionally made our life that way. But, you know, having someone to like, you know, tag team of okay, like, I'm gonna lose my shit, can you come in and take your turn, and then vice versa, and like doing all the things together, and knowing I can trust him, and he's there to support me like emotionally, mentally, physically, like, all of it. Especially during those like fluctuating hormones in the beginning where like, you just are grieving your old self. Like you're a completely new person. Now, this new role, your body doesn't feel like yours anymore. You're healing from childbirth, whether it's vaginal, or, like this area, and Ryan, like all of these changes, and having a partner who has your back and is like, reassuring you and supporting you is so huge and important that you give a shout out to Iran like thank you for helping me so much. And I found a mommy group in my neighborhood. That has been awesome, huge. Yeah, like being able to go every Friday to this group. They like sit with other women who are moms and talk about this stuff and support each other. A lot of them are business owners to like having that community, I think has been instrumental in like, keeping me sane for my mental health, for sure. And I think now that she's like, you know, there's a little bit of a pattern now aggravate, she's sleeping, we know when she's going to sleep for how long kind of when she needs to eat like we're picking up on her now. And when she smiled for the first time, like in response to us, My heart melted like that's when I was like, Oh, this is all worth it now. That was a game changer. For sure. I was seeing her smile in response to us. Gosh, that is so cute. Yeah, she's a doll and like, you know, you can see her a little personality now like when she laughs is certain things are like, you know, she her reflexes are just crazy. Like, I'm really highly sensitive person, like, sensory wise, and I think that she, I mean, she's kind of like that, too. Like, she reacts really well to things. And it's just like fun to watch her grow each week is like something different seriously, like, she's gaining weight or her hair color is changing. Her eyes are changing. She's responding to things. It's it's really beautiful to watch that part and think about like, Who is she going to grow into like this little human that you know, my partner and I are molding to be a good person, like, what is she going to be like in a couple years is really cool to think about? Yeah,

Dr. Katie Manganello: 44:45

that really is so cool to think about. And you know what else is just so interesting about this is I bet we could have this same conversation, like every week or every month and all of your answers could be different or Right. Yeah, like your answer if I asked you right now, because I'm finding myself going to be like, like the most challenging thing, what's the most rewarding thing. But I think that's so subjective to the phase that you're just in right now, which just like, talk about mindfulness being important. I feel like as a parent, that's something you have to like, soak in. Yeah,

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 45:18

I mean, being in these mommy groups, and like, the moms are like different stages with their kids, right? Like, I have the youngest, I showed up like two and a half weeks postpartum people, like how are you even here? I'm like, I don't know, I'm, I'm a zombie, I don't know. But seriously, and like the other moms, they have babies who are like eight months, who's three years old? 10 1218. It's like a wide range, which is really cool. And the common theme is that every stage is easy and hard. It's just different, right? Like, what's hard about this stage will make the next stage easy. But then that stage has its own challenges. So really just like being in the moment, like, she's never going to be this age again. And she's never going to do the things that she's doing now. So it's kind of like it's two sides of the same coin, just embracing it. Right. And like, I think that really defines unconditional love. Right? Like, all of the neg not, I mean, there are a lot of the negative things that come with this. There's all these positive aspects, and just challenges that it's like, wow, like, I'm growing and learning as a person while I watch her grow and learn to be a little human being and like, she's realizing she has hands. Like, you know, like, she's got feet, she's using them. And it's like seeing life, from the beginning as like this age is really fascinating. So I really like we try to be as present as we can. I mean, obviously, sometimes it's really hard to do that, because we're just like in the thick of it. But I think that that's good. Like the common theme that I'm hearing for everybody else is, it's it's easy and hard just in different ways. Like it doesn't actually ever get easier. This stage gets easier because you don't have it anymore.

Dr. Katie Manganello: 47:02

What would you say up until this point has been the most challenging, or like the most surprising. The most

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 47:09

challenging, I really think is the sleep deprivation is just like, like, you know, when you go to the airport, there's this jokes, like when you go to the airport, it can be at any time of the day and like you'll get a mimosa because times not real. Right? Like, right? Yeah, it kind of felt like that, like, especially in the beginning, like, it doesn't even matter. Like if it's day or night because I'm doing the same thing every hour and a half to two hours that like time is a fake. It's just a construct. Like, it's not real, like we were kind of like losing it. Like this is you're not sleeping and it's so hard to function and like control your emotions or your thoughts or to do anything when you don't have sleep. I think I was surprised that how not how little sleep I was gonna give like how much it was going to impact me. Because I was like, oh, like, you know, I've had all nighters, and I've, you know, done this and blah, blah, blah, but like, it's so different. Because, you know, if you're a procrastinator, you're just like, Oh, I'll put this off sale tomorrow, like you just can't, because guess what, it's gonna start over in two hours. Again, it's like Groundhog Groundhogs Day, a little bit. In the beginning. I don't want to scare people. But I think those first two months are really brutal, but then pass that it definitely gets like easier, right? Like, you know, the patterns, they sleep a little bit longer. There's more gaps between when they're eating, they're showing their personality, right. Like, the beginning is just like a shit show. And you Trump I mean, me and Ron trauma bonded for sure. Like, I think it either strengthens your relationship or can tear it apart. Yeah, I could totally say that. That was the most surprising thing, especially to

Dr. Katie Manganello: 48:46

when you're saying like, the first in the beginning of being really difficult. I'm sure that it's also just hard to navigate. Hey, products, there are what products you're supposed to do, then there's a whole I mean, if we even started about talking about breastfeeding, that would be like a whole episode. I feel like it's like, do you do you not do you do both? Like, just figuring all of those things out on top of it, I'm sure is really challenging.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 49:12

Yeah, I mean, so much stress and anxiety and just like analysis paralysis comes through because there are so many products in the market and like, do I even need this? Like, you know, especially when you're going through like your baby shower guestlist or not guestlist the registry? Yeah, gift registry, right. Like, I still lose my mind. Like Mom Brain is very real, by the way. And, like knowing like, what should I be doing? is so tough, like, even as a therapist, I know that like you shouldn't should, right like even within that you everyone is different. It's always gonna look you know, depending on the person the circumstances, it's only based on someone else's opinion. You know, but if you're a new parent, like you really don't know like, you can read all the books and you get all this unsolicited. buys from people, but it's really just about paying attention to like what works for you, your family, your baby and your circumstances, which is going to change from person and family to family. Right. So like breastfeeding, we can talk about that for a whole hour. Like, we don't have enough time for that. But like, that was really challenging to, like, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give this a try. If my body will, you know, produce and, you know, this is what we've been, you know, made for the beginning of time to do my body has been, you know, constructed in this way, like, I'm going to try to do it. And, you know, luckily, she latched right away. But you know, am I produce the anxiety is, am I producing enough? How much is she getting? Is it enough? What should I be eating? I haven't eaten enough, I'm dehydrated. I'm not sleeping, like, is she? Okay? Why is she crying? It's just like, so many spiraling thoughts around just feeding the baby. And then it's starting all over again. And in an hour.

Dr. Katie Manganello: 50:56

Yeah, and I know that people put like, a lot of pressure on themselves to, to, for it to, for you to be able to do it. Right.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 51:03

Yeah, like at the hospital, they asked, like, are you going to breastfeed are gonna do formula? And I was like, I don't know, like, maybe can I do both? Like, I want to do both. And that's what we've been doing is both right, like I breastfeed I pump and I give formula, depending on what's going on the circumstances, her like the stage in life, like, do I have taught, like, there's all of these factors that like, there is this message and even as a therapy, like, it's so hard, because as therapists like, we know, a lot of stuff like cognitively we get it, but we're still humans are still emotional beings that like, are influenced by the people around us. And it's like, well, I really want to stop breastfeeding. When I feel really guilty about that. You know, and like a lot of shame, like I should be able to do it. If I can do it, then you know, I should do it. And there's people who can't do it that wish they could, or the bonding or, you know, what is this gonna do to my baby? Or, you know, like, there's all these thoughts that you're just there's a lot of uncertainty, I think there's a lot of uncertainty. And it's hard to know, which is the right thing to do. And all the time there is no right thing, like I know, we talked about in a different episode, like there is no right thing. There's just the best thing under the circumstances for you.

Dr. Katie Manganello: 52:17

Right. And I mean, no wonder, this subtype of OCD exists, right. Talk about uncertainty. I mean, you'll do a CD. Right. So yeah, of course, it's gonna be scary, right? Like, it's a lot. Yeah. So I mean, I think we've obviously touched on a lot of challenges. And obviously, I'm sure there's so many more, but to kind of like, tie a nice little bow on what we've been discussing, what do you feel like has been the best part of being a new mom? And what are you most excited about for your future with her?

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 52:50

I think the best part of this is a couple of things is, I really got to see how strong I am. I think a lot of the time, my life, I've you know, been told or told myself, like, Oh, I'm kind of like physically weak, or I'm very emotional and sensitive, and I can't handle a lot of things. And you know, through this process, I've realized them a lot stronger than I give myself credit for. And that I can show up and do what I have to do when it really counts. And I think that has been a huge difference in like how I view myself and the way of like, resilience has definitely been different. And I think another great part is relationally, like, me and my partner being a lot stronger, like going through this together. And like, even when it's crazy, like finding the humor in it, like, you know, she pooped five times in a row and he changed her diaper five times, and six times she like she got it on him and like we just started crying, laughing like, just trying to find the humor in some of this and doing it together as a team, I think has been really great. And like watching him be a dad and like, watching how sweet and cute that is, you know that he's holding her and talking to her and then like, we're buying these little books, like he's got a whole science set of like astrophysics for baby is like just like silly things and like, spending time with her. I think the best part is in the morning when we wake up and she opens her eyes and sees us she smiles like She giggles and like it's so it's so sweet to see that that it's like okay, even if I didn't get sleep, like it's such a great way to wake up. It's like see this little beautiful smile back at you and like, it's it's love, right? Like, no one is telling her like, You should do this to make mom feel better like, right. It's innocent. It's really innocent and sweet and a lot of like loving emotions. So I think that the best part of this for me has been like, witnessing and being aware of like all the relational pieces of how this ties in and feeling more closer and connected to them.

Dr. Katie Manganello: 54:53

Yeah. Do you feel I know. So that was gonna be my last question, but one more. How do you feel like now Let your Aman that it's going to change you as a therapist as it relates to empathy and like other parents and not because I'm sure it has to be a totally different perspective.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 55:10

Yeah, I mean, it's it goes from being able to like, cognitively think about something rationally to just like, I like in the trenches like you can really relate Right? Like when we go through something, we have a client that goes through something similar, like it's just a different level of relatability. And like the nuances, right? Like, it's the nuances you don't notice, think about because you weren't in it. And just knowing these little pieces, it's like, it just like takes it to the next like, I know the difference being like this pump to this pump, because of how it makes my boobs feel right. Like, I would never think of that or like, it takes so long to leave the house. I used to be like, why are people always late with kids? Like, why don't they just leave an hour earlier? Like, you silly, silly person. Good idea. Yeah. And like, I think we're really, in terms of empathy as a therapist, but also just as a person, like, Man, I should apologize to my mom. Like the amount of we always joke like in the Jewish culture, God is Jewish guilt. But like, seriously, like the amount of things that you go through the sacrifices that you make in your body and in your life, where this human that you love, for them to not appreciate it is like a slap in the face. And so I think I have this different understanding and empathy for just moms in general. And like how hard it is, and being a little bit more sensitive to when I have clients. If they're complaining or talking about their parents. I'm like, well, there's this whole other side that we may not have considered, right. Like they're just a person trying to do their best with what they have and what they learned and like, they're not perfect either. Yeah, shout out to all the moms out there.

Dr. Katie Manganello: 57:03

Shout out to all the moms

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 57:06

and the dance. Yes. All the present, parents shout out to all of them. Present

Dr. Katie Manganello: 57:12

parents love that. I am so happy. I mean, again, I could have probably talked to you about this up for ever. But I really appreciate and acknowledge your vulnerability in this because I think that as a therapist, and you know, your own an owner of your practice, it can be hard to you know, disclose some of the struggles that you're experiencing, for people to to hear. But I think that it's also really powerful and the people appreciate that a lot. So, I really, I really appreciate your authenticity and willingness to open up today.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky: 57:49

Thank you. I appreciate you asking and being curious and giving me the space to share. Excellent. So for anyone who is interested in working with Dr. Katie, you can head over to our website heal your roots. wellness.com To schedule a console. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, share and comment. And thanks so much for listening. Thanks